Tuesday, January 22, 2013

Overthrowing the Government

The reasons people give for owning guns have changed over time. It has been a long time since most people would say they needed guns to keep their African slaves from rebelling or fleeing, and it has been quite a while since people said they needed to be able to defend themselves from native American savages. At a forum a couple of days ago in a suburb of Chicago, one guy shouted out that he needs his guns to protect himself from people who live on the south side of Chicago. I wonder who he had in mind?

Not many people around where I live, or where most people live in the US live, still say they need to be able to hunt so that they will have food to eat. Not many say they need guns so they can kill themselves, even though that's what a lot of gun owners do with their guns. Most suicides in the US are committed with guns, and most gun deaths are suicides.

It used to be that only those on the really weird fringes said they needed guns so that they could fight against their own government if it ever became tyrannical. Not a lot of rational people think their handguns or even their assault rifles would make them much of a match if they were up against their local police department or sheriff's office, let alone the entire US government. But remarkably, that was the overwhelming view of about 200 people who showed up at the recent suburban public forum.

The Illinois State Rifle Association had asked their people – who love their guns more than they care about other people's lives – to go to the forum. They showed up and, on a pre-arranged signal, interrupted the moderator's introductions by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. There's nothing wrong with pledging allegiance, but this demonstration was designed to take control of the meeting and display their power. You may have seen something like it in movies like Cabaret and The Sound of Music, which chronicle how Nazis would intimidate patrons of beer halls and other public events by singing, saluting, scowling, taking names, and following up with beatings.

The pro-gunners seemed to think that they were displaying patriotism, and every so often during the forum one of them would accuse people who were promoting reasonable solutions to the problem of gun violence as being un-American.

So it was shocking when one man stood up, wearing what appeared to be military patches on his jacket, announced that he had served in our military, and then went on to say that the reason he needed to be allowed to own assault weapons was so that he could take over the government by force if he decided it was tyrannical. What was more surprising was that the entire roomful of gun lovers stood and erupted in cheers for the idea of armed resistance to the very government that they claimed to love so dearly.

When most people think of modern armed insurrectionists they probably think of kooks living in a cult compound somewhere in the hills out west. But there they were, right in the middle of a prosperous Midwestern suburb, in a meeting that was being held in the public assembly room of the local police station.

The contradiction between claiming to support the government and being eager and ready to overthrow it didn't seem to occur to these people. It made sense to them to cheer a returned soldier just for being a soldier, and in the next breath cheer the idea of killing our own soldiers and federal agents if they were carrying out their duties and their oaths to protect and preserve our country.

One might expect, knowing as we do that various agencies of government in the US routinely spy on people in our country who might be considered threats, that people would be reticent to openly show support for such radical viewpoints. But the gun lovers in the room enthusiastically declared their support for the idea of armed revolution.

At the end of the program a handful of pro-gun folks came up to me, apologized for the rude behavior of the crowd, shook my hand, and said they hoped we could find “common ground.” Maybe we could, if those few represented the majority of gun owners. But they were vastly outnumbered at the meeting, and I'm having trouble thinking of where I might find common ground with people who advocate the violent overthrow of our government and takeover of our country.

37 comments:

  1. You are twisting the words of our war hero who challenged your statement that the 2nd amendment may no longer be valid in our day and age. Infact those were not his words. Multiple Videos are available on you tube of his exact words.

    You suggested that the 2nd Amendment has no place in our society in this day and age. As our war veteran pointed out, the 2nd Amendment has a place in all time, as necessary to a free state. Some may argue that we have a standing military, where as back in 1776 we did not. However we need protection from the very people who wish to take our rights away. Protection from Tyranny.

    Tyranny can happen. I bet the Jewish peoples in the 1930's didn't think it would happen to them. Sadly they were mistaken. John F Kennedy, though admittedly not the best spokes person for gun rights, said it best, "By calling attention to a well-regulated militia for the security of the Nation, and the right of each citizen to keep and bear arms, our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fear of governmental tyranny, which gave rise to the 2nd amendment, will ever be a major danger to our Nation, the amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic military-civilian relationship, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason I believe the 2nd Amendment will always be important."

    The 2nd Amendment WILL ALWAYS BE IMPORTANT.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Guns may not be a need in your opinion, but they are most certainly are our RIGHT.

    I can say that nobody needs an Iphone. And there is nothing in the constitution that would say you have the right to have one.

    Mr. Goodman

    There is no such thing as a bad gun.

    Guns are tools.

    Police officers don't just happen to have the "GOOD GUNS"

    Criminals and crazy people are still the problem.

    Stop attacking our constitution. If you want to make some sensible crime control suggestions we will support you.

    ReplyDelete
  3. You and I don't live under tyranny. This is because of the second ammendment. When I took my oath to join our military I swore to uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Our country is based on checks and balances. If the government becomes tyranical, it is the duty of it's citizens and military to replace that government. I doubt it will ever get to this point.

    If you ask most folks in law enforcement and military where they stand on 2A rights, they would tell you that they support it and our constitution. They do not share your views.

    ReplyDelete
  4. "I'm having trouble thinking of where I might find common ground with people who advocate the violent overthrow of our government and takeover of our country."

    So you admit you have nothing in common with our founding fathers, the patriots who fought and overthrew an oppressive government?

    The government stops being ours when it takes away our rights. You clearly don't think the 2nd Amendment should exist. The fact that you would do away with a cornerstone of the Constitution is what is truly scary.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Wow, Lee, I think your heart is in the right place, but I don't think you grasp the very nature of the 2nd Amendment and why it is so important to ALL Americans.

    ReplyDelete
  6. The video of you dismissing the Second Amendment is going viral. You looked like a buffoon as a true American hero put you in place. It's called the Bill of Rights for reason. You got a small taste of true American resolve at that event. Keep going because you are galvanizing those of us that believe in the Constitution!

    ReplyDelete
  7. Here Lee

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/01/veteran-stands-up-for-2nd-amendment-at-chicago-anti-gun-forum/

    And while we are on this road to educating you....

    And how about FBI Data that shows the crime rate has been dropping over the past few years.

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

    Here is something else

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/research-concealed-carry-and-guns-save-lives-95307939.html

    And with over 30,000 views so far....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C44B55YYLQ

    ReplyDelete
  8. Lee you're still not getting it, we all agree that we want to stop the violence and senseless murder of anyone including children, where we disagree is how to do so.
    If I understand your argument correctly, you want everyone to rely on the police for their own protection, which sounds good on paper, until you have someone 30ft away from you with ill intentions. Good luck waiting for the police then.

    Second, nobody wants to overthrow the government, what the 2nd protects and what we need it for is to force the government to quit ignoring the constitution.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Nobody used to read or reply to this blog until now. Seems like the people are trying to tell you something. Over 70,000 people have seen the youtube video and think you are a jackass. I promise you that you would have a hard time finding more than 300 people to say that you are not.

    You simply refuse to remove your head from your ads, but I think that it still can happen.

    Apologize to America, accept that guns are not going away, and stop using false statistics.

    If you want to make a difference, talk to some gun owners and find out why they are passionate. Open your eyes and see that the people who are angry at you, are not the bad guys. The bad guys are already carrying guns illegally. They don't want concealed carry laws to pass.

    I would appreciate some kind of reply here if you are man enough. Its not to late to say sorry.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Over 120,000 people have seen you make a fool of yourself on YouTube.

    Guns don't act alone.


    The NRA Isnt some evil entity. It represents all Americans and their rights. The sad thing is you don't appreciate the freedoms you have thanks to guns and the second amendment.

    I do appreciate that you want to help save lives, but you must understand that there will always be evil and crazy people. There are millions of responsible gun owners and we vastly out number the lowlife scum.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I barely made it through the first two paragraphs before I felt like puking. I can't even begin to comprehend how someone of even average intelligence (and I'm sure you think of yourself as above average) can be so utterly ignorant. Not only are you ignorant of statistical facts and our nation's history but you are obviously, and painfully so, devoid of any common sense. There will be a moment in your life when you've walked into the wrong neighborhood, or been surrounded by a group of unknown men, or hear an unexplained "thump" in the night and I guarantee that the one thing you will wish for most is a firearm to protect yourself and your family. If you are lucky there will be a law-abiding, gun-toting fellow American nearby to save your ignorant bacon from the fire. And you'd better hope he's never read this ridiculous post. Good day and good luck.

    ReplyDelete
  12. 160,000 views on YouTube.....

    ReplyDelete
  13. You are a sick sad person. Because of men like Mr Tully the US has never been attacked on it's own soil by invading armies. The only acts of war have been by terrorism or stealth planes. Most likely you are Jewish, did you know Hitler disarmed the Jews. You are so dumb it defies logic. First they came for the concealed carry and I did nothing......etc. Grow up you big baby.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Not that I expect you to read this, Mr. Goodman, but I think you should go back and look at that video posted on Legal Insurrection. Take a good look at your dismissive demeanor and words. Now think if you were watching someone you disagreed with behave in that manner. Your behavior was obnoxious - you dripped condescension. You were thoroughly disagreeable. How do you ever expect to have an actual conversation about anything when you make fun of the very people whose minds you're trying to change?

    It is your ilk who make the Second Amendment so important to us "rubes." Those of us who do not wish to be ruled by the likes of you. There is no doubt in my mind that you would like to wipe us from the face of the earth.

    ReplyDelete
  15. How's that working out for you anyway - the taking away of peoples ability to own/carry guns? Are all those muggers, rapists, stick-up artists, killers and home invasion types quickly obeying your rules & regulations? This is my suggestion - go out and learn to shoot a gun, unless of course you feel that 911 can show up on your front step in time to protect you from the nasty thugs roaming your part of paradise.

    ReplyDelete
  16. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Mr. Goodman wrote: "It used to be that only those on the really weird fringes said they needed guns so that they could fight against their own government if it ever became tyrannical."

    So tell us: If the people were to be disarmed by the govt, what exactly would prevent the government from oppressing it's citizens using it's armed militias?

    Mr. Goodman wrote: "Not a lot of rational people think their handguns or even their assault rifles would make them much of a match if they were up against their local police department or sheriff's office, let alone the entire US government."

    With due respect, you really do no understand the context, scope and reality of the matter you are commenting on. For example, the number of licensed hunters in the state of Wisconsin alone outnumbers the standing armies of most nations of the world.

    And as a whole, American citizens who keep and bear arms legally outnumber the armed militias of the American government (military, FBI, police, etc.) by a bit over 300 to 1. And that is only the legally owned weapons.

    Mr. Goodman, as a former field grade US military officer I promise you that the 300 armed American citizens makes a hell of a deterrent force to that 1 armed government tool of oppression a rogue president *believes* he had. Such is a force that only a fool or lunatic would try to take on.

    But that is actually a moot point. Because Mr. Goodman I promise you that *if* a rogue president ever were to issue orders to the military to turn its guns on American citizens (comprised remember, of the children, spouses, siblings and parents of said military) the US military would disobey that as an illegal order and immediately decapitate the part or parts of the government responsible for said orders - and then allow the process to work that would restore our democratic republic to operation under the Constitution.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Couldn't have said it better.

      Delete
    2. Thanks.

      I'm astounded sometimes at the sheer, grinding ignorance (in some cases, stupidity) of some Americans regarding our human rights and the importance of the right protected by the second amendment.

      People like Mr. Goodman do not understand what America is and what it is not. Thank goodness there are plenty who do understand that America is all about living as freed human beings, not existing as chattel for some elite ruling class.

      Delete
    3. Well said... People like Lee and his other activist friends are drunk with the power that they believe they have with Obama, Rahm, Madigan and Cullerton in office.

      They have overstepped themselves this time. However, they will return to the plan of eroding our freedoms one tiny bit at a time soon. Feinstein's bill will go down but they will end up getting a handful of concessions with the help of the RINOs like McCain. Then they will salivate for the next event they can market as the 2nd amendment's fault.

      BTW, what is Lee's profession? Academic, public employee, or political activist?

      I think my chihuahua could tear him to shreds.

      Delete
  18. So, Mr. Goodman, as an American citizen you have the right to not own a firearm. If that's the way you choose to exercise your rights under the 2nd Amendment, why should it follow that it's incumbent on you to deny other citizens the due exercise of their rights? Also, you seem to have an odd perception of citizens' choice to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

    All in all, the tone of your post implies a lack of respect for others rights, making you appear to be at odds with core American principles. If so, it's a big world. I suggest you may be happier in another country.

    ReplyDelete
  19. You may have seen something like it in movies like Cabaret and The Sound of Music, which chronicle how Nazis would intimidate patrons of beer halls and other public events by singing, saluting, scowling, taking names, and following up with beatings.

    Yes! Awesome! You did it!

    Congratulations on proving Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies. It took you longer than most to invoke it, but you did and you validated it.

    And there's nothing like introducing Godwin's Rule into the conversation to show who you truly are. A leftist without an intelligent thought about the issue.


    ReplyDelete
  20. I missed the part where those who pledged allegiance by "following up with beatings." Your analogy is rotten.

    Your characterization of another's speech was poor. An "assault weapon" wasn't mentioned by him (and, in fact, makes no sense; all weapons are, by definition, "assault").

    It looks to me like you are practicing the kind of bizarre divisive politics that the peacemaker thinks is "crap."

    There is also no record of anyone wanting to protect themselves from people who live on the south side of Chicago. You made that up and then accused those strawmen of racism. As someone who attended U of C, I know one doesn't have to look very far or with a racist bias in order to see one of the most violent-prone places in the entire country. Bullies are able to swagger with impunity because law-abiding citizens are unprotected sitting ducks.

    Apparently you presaged Ms. Clinton with a "what difference does it make" argument at one point, but then you made some ridiculous historical arguments about racist reasons to bear arms. In fact, gun control has been used by Democrats to keep blacks in vulnerable positions for decades, as they are continuing to do today in cities like DC and Chicago.

    Anyway, I enjoyed the reference to The Sound of Music. It is incredibly moving when the entire crowd sings Edelweiss to show defiance to the control-freak Nazis. Perhaps there's a lesson there for you to ponder.

    ReplyDelete
  21. This man is going to keep whining and spouting out false facts about guns and concealed carry laws no matter what we say to him. Its sad because he just has no common sense. Over 2 million times a year a law abiding gun owner draws his weapon in defense of him/herself & family & stops a criminal without even firing a shot.

    ReplyDelete
  22. A blog post whose title is based on a bare-faced lie. No-one even mentioned taking over the government. You cannot get away with lies now, Goodman. Too many people recording reality, too many people to take you to task for your dishonesty.

    Of course lying means you know you have lost the argument. If you had any honest argument to make you would not stoop to this.

    AS for racism - even I know that gun control has its origins in the militant wing of the Democrat Party in the South - the KKK - trying to disarm their victims. That is more important historically of course, not the racism but disarming the victim. You can't disarm the criminal so you disarm the victim.

    ReplyDelete
  23. But please look at some of the most prominent names of the supporters of Anti-Bill of Rights people like Soros, Bloomberg, Schumer, Feinstein, Bloomenthal, Eichenwald, Emanuel, Green, Kaul, Dershowitz are a bunch of leftists.. Tell me why should I live my life based on their ideology please? Why are they so interested in having a “defensive power monopoly in their hands” did they not learn anything from their own family history? I am astonished... I now have to add Mr. Goodman to my list...

    ReplyDelete
  24. Mr. Goodman: Why don't you explore www.houseofname.com/goodman

    I would not bring up "Nazis" without mentioning that "Nazis" disarmed the Jews. I wonder how many of my ancestors in Europe would have not have to flee to Spain and change the last consonant on a local last name from "z" to "s" to keep some dignity and preserve their heritage even if among themselves. There is a big difference between a "MartineZ" and a "MartineS" and so on. Don't know about it? then do some research.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I find it interesting that Mr. Goodman can't differentiate between our government and our country.

    ReplyDelete
  26. "The Illinois State Rifle Association had asked their people – who love their guns more than they care about other people's lives – to go to the forum"...

    Dude, you're proven to be a punk on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights...

    Here you are whining about guns and gun laws but from the point of view of abysmal ignorance...

    Hey, how about those Chicago firearms laws?

    LMAO!

    ReplyDelete
  27. Mr. Goodman. When (not if) concealed carry begins, we will make sure to follow your views on guns. If we see you, or your hate group in distress, we promise not to use our firearms to defend you.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Lee Goodman, to be succinct, you're a liar.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Lee Goodman is a perfect example of the aspiring fascists leading the dem party. These are the Obama/Rahm/Axelrod types who adopt the long view of the ChiComms.

    Lee doesn't give a damn about a child sleeping in a bathtub to hide from bullets in the gun free zone of Chicago. That child is simply a convenient marketing instrument to these Alinsky devotees.

    Here is their long plan condensed...

    1) take away the targeted victim class's ability to defend themselves and their freedoms.

    2) grant a monopoly on violence to the state (as long as the state is controlled by Lee and his ideological cohorts

    3) seize the victim class's wealth, resources, and/or labor

    It may be in 5 years, 10 or 20 years BUT Lee (or his son) and their allies will be calling us Nazis for not allowing them to nationalize retirement accounts to pay unfunded pubic employee and teacher pensions... or maybe they will tell us we can only have 1 child because of overpopulation... or that we can no longer cross state lines without permission because of carbon signatures/climate change.

    This man and his coalition are brazen enough to make their move now.

    Mark them and remember when the time comes....

    ReplyDelete
  30. It's not love of government that would cause a patriot to rebel. It would be love of country. That's what confuses men like Goodman.

    ReplyDelete
  31. "It used to be that only those on the really weird fringes said they needed guns so that they could fight against their own government if it ever became tyrannical."

    Like James Madison, in Federalist #46?

    LOL

    The "Father of the Constitution" is now "on the really weird fringe."

    Oh you just can't make this stuff up.

    "our own soldiers and federal agents if they were carrying out their duties and their oaths to protect and preserve our country."

    Good grief. You're obviously not a veteran, and you're obviously an ignorant civilian. No oath of office in our military involves a commitment to "protect and preserve our country." The language for officers -- which is similar to that for enlisteds and for federal government officials such as the President, Senators, etc. -- is thus: "I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...."

    You're utterly oblivious to the fact that it's the CONSTITUTION they swear to support and defend, and bear true faith and allegiance to.

    So they swear to defend the Second Amendment -- which is part of the Constitution -- against cretins like you.

    Note the phrase "enemies, foreign and domestic." Do you really want to position yourself as a domestic enemy of the Constitution?

    You have the chutzpah to self-righteously look down your nose at those who are championing the Constitution? As you yammer as if the Constitution doesn't matter?

    Dude.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Just another lib "bringing us together" and "raising the tenor of discourse" by comparing his opponents to slave holders and nazis (both of whch made sure their victims were disarmed, btw). I wonder if any lib will ever recognize the degree to which they rely on bully, marginalization and abuse to get their way? My guess is never. One more thing, re your our statement " . . how Nazis would intimidate patrons of beer halls and other public events by singing, saluting, scowling, taking names, and following up with beatings.. . ."

    Did those horrible gun owners beat you up after that meeting? Nah, they didn't. Just a rhetorical device to scare people. Funny, that.

    ReplyDelete